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 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews

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Beckstle
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PostSubject: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 2:45 pm

Well, the ratings are in, and I have to say, I'm not thrilled. I feel like the show is still trying to regain it's footing after the December programming disasters. Castle scored a 9.4 in viewers and a 2.3 in the demo. Neutral The numbers aren't horrible, but they got beaten by H5O fair & square: 10.4 and 2.8. Sucks, because it really was an awesome episode and central to the mythology arc. pale They need to bump up the ads for it, or just some consistancy in airing episodes would do it. Rolling Eyes

www.spoilertv.com


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Beckstle
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 1:44 am

Wow! An interesting and hopeful bit of news. Castle won the demo in 18-34 adults! Apparently they also did better than they did last year at this time.

All of this is from: http://castletv.net - I would TOTALLY go check this link out, because they've got all this cool ratings comparison stuff from last season. happy
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 1:49 am

Review from http://www.daemonstv.com - lots of fav quotes! Very Happy
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Beckstle
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PostSubject: Review from TV Fanatic   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeThu Jan 19, 2012 3:45 am

They seem to have some questions about this one...
Quote :
Even though this wasn’t a stellar episode, it moved the story forward. Now if we could only get some headway with Caskett, things would be great. There have been a few really great episodes this season, and some not so much. Here is hoping that one of the upcoming are going to rock our worlds before we get in a Castle slump. I am looking forward to either a tension filled, serious crime hour (a la "Countdown" and "Setup") or an extremely kooky fun and unpredictable episode.

Now, I love TV Fanatic, but I have to disagree on this one. I thought it was definitely one of the better episodes. It had a case issue, which I'll mention over in discussion, but I overall liked it. I thought it worked with some subtleties...which is nice to see in televison.

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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeFri Jan 20, 2012 9:49 pm

I, for one, think TV Fanatic is being overly generous. I got suckered in by the ok-ish reviews into watching the episode on-line (after the recent string of disasters I didn't have the heart to watch it live), and unfortunately my suspicions were confirmed; the show is doomed.
The writers wove wove this big conspiracy plot with shadowy "powers" and strategic "pawns", but in all this Castle and Beckett were nowhere to be found. The show should be about Castle and Becket (if not Caskett), its universe is supposed to revolve around them. And the writers did a beautiful job of this in cases like Sucker-Punch or Knockout, where no matter how big or twisty the story got it always centered around these two characters and made the viewer want to invest in them. But here the story, whatever it is, has turned Castle and Becket into insignificant pawns in a much bigger game, insignificant not because of their political status, but because it impossible to invest in them, even if you really, really want to. And the fact that the writers put much more effort and skill into this episode than they did into "cuffed" or "'Till Death..", which were supposed to be Caskett oriented episodes, confirms my feeling that they don't care about their characters anymore; they want all the dynamics they built up over the first three years out of the way so they can keep making episodes without worrying about "the moonlighting curse". I loved Montgomery's character, but I was willing to forgive them for changing him out (even for the relatively unappealing Gates). I really liked the original mayor, the judge, and the writers that played poker with Castle, but if there was no room in the story for them, I could understand them getting pushed out. I didn't like the way they changed Alexis, but I let it go. Their over-focus on Esplaine and how they developed them really annoyed me, but I was so invested in Caskett that I let it slide. But now they've completely destroyed whatever Castle-Beckett dynamic there used to be. No offense to anyone, but I just find it so sad to see posters clutching at things like that conversation between them this week or the last scene in last week's episode, when those scenes lacked even one tenth of the energy and chemistry that there used to be just in the quips they used to exchange, not to mention how they built theory together or the way one of them would look at the other when the other person wasn't looking. All that is gone now, together with any reason for watching the show
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeFri Jan 20, 2012 11:09 pm

I definitely disagree with your assestment, Tolkeinite. However, I DO agree that the story being told is bigger than JUST Castle & Beckett. For me that's a plus, not a minus. Watching characters doing the same thing over and over again is what bores me. I am far more invested their story because it is part of something larger. The things they've gone through and dealt with make the love story all the more meaningful. I love the whole "Us against the world" backdrop. I find that because the story is so epic it's impossible to have every aspect in every episode. However, Castle's structure is more movielike, which is something many people don't catch onto. When you watch several episodes in a row, the structure becomes much clearer. It really isn't an episodic show, and trying to process it as such is bound to be disappointing.
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Beckstle
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 1:19 am

Here's the review in from TVOverMind: http://www.tvovermind.com

I thought this was a fair and solid review. I agree that, yes, there is ALOT going on that isn't clear yet, but what IS clear is the amazing character development and in particular the development of the relationship between Kate and Rick. Could the conspiracy get big and overwhelming - sure that could be a danger, but right now it's not. For me, I still find it intriguing.
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 1:29 am

Oh, I love this one! They basically are going through scene by scene and breaking down the good and not so good. Talk about through! 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews 1357399748 Check out http://www.hosnbros.com for a major recap and review!
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tolkeinite

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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 2:36 pm

Beckstle wrote:
I definitely disagree with your assestment, Tolkeinite. However, I DO agree that the story being told is bigger than JUST Castle & Beckett. For me that's a plus, not a minus. I am far more invested their story because it is part of something larger. The things they've gone through and dealt with make the love story all the more meaningful. I love the whole "Us against the world" backdrop. .
.

I equally love that Idea of "Us against the world", you'll have no argument form me there, the only problem is that I don't see the "Us", haven't seen it since Cops and Robbers, and it's been five episodes since then (and don't try to bring up "Cuffed" as a counter-argument, because to me that will only hurt your case).

Beckstle wrote:
Watching characters doing the same thing over and over again is what bores me.
.
Sadly I think here is where you (and the writers) and I really part company. To me the bedrock of Castle and Beckett's love story, and I would even go so far as to say any love story, is faith and continuity, the promise of each to be a constant, a bulwark for the other no matter what challenges the world brings. I really thought the writers understood that with their emphasis on the promise "Always" Castle would always follow Beckett, even into the gravest of dangers. He would always be as close as she would let him. He would always challenge her, always make her laugh. When she was sad, he'd have a self-depricating joke ready to cheer her up. When she hit a wall, he would force her to take a rest while he himself would work as long as it took until he could help her break that wall down. When she was hurt or scared he would always be there to comfort her and when she felt vulnerable he would always make her feel safe. Beckett's promise in exchange was that she would always tolerate Castle's quirks, no matter how much they annoyed her. She would always play his games with him. She would always protect him when he made a mistake or went too far and always comfort him when he felt guilty. She would always let him in as far as her personality would allow. She would share things with him that no one else would know. And even if she needed some space from him she would always come back when he called. For me the repetition of that pattern is not boring, instead it is the heart and soul of the show. That is what was lost in "Kill Shot". It should have been there but it wasn't, and that was what first set off real alarm bells for me. We've now had four more episodes without even a sign that this dynamic is coming back, not even in the face of as great a threat as this week's episode presented, and that is why I think the show is dead.
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 4:32 pm

tolkeinite wrote:
Beckstle wrote:
I definitely disagree with your assestment, Tolkeinite. However, I DO agree that the story being told is bigger than JUST Castle & Beckett. For me that's a plus, not a minus. I am far more invested their story because it is part of something larger. The things they've gone through and dealt with make the love story all the more meaningful. I love the whole "Us against the world" backdrop. .
.

I equally love that Idea of "Us against the world", you'll have no argument form me there, the only problem is that I don't see the "Us", haven't seen it since Cops and Robbers, and it's been five episodes since then (and don't try to bring up "Cuffed" as a counter-argument, because to me that will only hurt your case).
This goes directly to my point about wanting the show to be episodic. Every episode can't be the intensity of Cops & Robbers - talk about unrealistic! Razz While 'Cuffed' may not help in my discussion with you on this, it does work for me, and for many others, mainly because it brought up what they both want (in that opening shot) and discussed some of the dynamics and issues within their relationship. Now, if I wanted a soap-opera type show, Castle & Beckett would be be staring deeply into each others eyes regardless of the circumstances and every episode would revolve around them getting together, as opposed to this more complex love story with each characters' issues and backstory being worked with.
Quote :

Beckstle wrote:
Watching characters doing the same thing over and over again is what bores me.
.
Quote :
Sadly I think here is where you (and the writers) and I really part company. To me the bedrock of Castle andoute Beckett's love story, and I would even go so far as to say any love story, is faith and continuity, the promise of each to be a constant, a bulwark for the other no matter what challenges the world brings. I really thought the writers understood that with their emphasis on the promise "Always" Castle would always follow Beckett, even into the gravest of dangers. He would always be as close as she would let him. He would always challenge her, always make her laugh. When she was sad, he'd have a self-depricating joke ready to cheer her up. When she hit a wall, he would force her to take a rest while he himself would work as long as it took until he could help her break that wall down. When she was hurt or scared he would always be there to comfort her and when she felt vulnerable he would always make her feel safe. Beckett's promise in exchange was that she would always tolerate Castle's quirks, no matter how much they annoyed her. She would always play his games with him. She would always protect him when he made a mistake or went too far and always comfort him when he felt guilty. She would always let him in as far as her personality would allow. She would share things with him that no one else would know. And even if she needed some space from him she would always come back when he called. For me the repetition of that pattern is not boring, instead it is the heart and soul of the show. That is what was lost in "Kill Shot". It should have been there but it wasn't, and that was what first set off real alarm bells for me. We've now had four more episodes without even a sign that this dynamic is coming back, not even in the face of as great a threat as this week's episode presented, and that is why I think the show is dead.
That is what was lost in "Kill Shot" Shocked Are you kidding me? Castle did the most loving, noble thing a man can do for the woman he loves. He got her WHAT SHE NEEDED. Most men aren't willing to love someone so much to let go of the ego idea that they can solve all of their partners problems. When Castle sent Esposito to help Beckett my heart totally melted. To KNOW her well enough, to SEE what she needed and put in motion what was necessary for her to heal - THAT to me is the ultimate of true love. It is one of the things I have always loved about their relationship. Castle has been willing to give her WHAT SHE NEEDS. Even if it means he doesn't get to "play the hero."

What I mean by repetition is a lack of growth within the characters and the relationship. The relationship you describe them as having is one that, to me, has not always been in place - especially on Beckett's end. Her indulgence of his quirks has been growing, but really hzs blossomed in THIS season. I've enjoyed watching the changes in their relationship. It's felt like one that has grown stronger and deeper as the series has gone on. I for instance, really haven't felt they were (n love until season 3. I felt that in 2 Castle realized his feelings were more than just attraction, but too late, and that Beckett, while she was really experiencing intense feelings, didn't trust Castle and his past... The relationship they have now is so much stonger and tested. It's the kind of relationship that can be built on and continued beyond when they get together because they've been developed as complete characters.

One thing I will say is that I have no intention of trying to dissuade you from you opinion. I'm a firm believer in allowing people to have their own opinion. However, I'm also a firm believer in not having to agree with it. Razz. When there are fundamental points of disagreement I prefer to agree to disagree. Wink
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tolkeinite

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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 6:08 pm

Beckstle wrote:
This goes directly to my point about wanting the show to be episodic. Every episode can't be the intensity of Cops & Robbers - talk about unrealistic! Razz Now, if I wanted a soap-opera type show, Castle & Beckett would be be staring deeply into each others eyes regardless of the circumstances and every episode would revolve around them getting together, as opposed to this more complex love story with each characters' issues and backstory being worked with.
Quote :

That is what was lost in "Kill Shot" Shocked Are you kidding me? Castle did the most loving, noble thing a man can do for the woman he loves. He got her WHAT SHE NEEDED. Most men aren't willing to love someone so much to let go of the ego idea that they can solve all of their partners problems. When Castle sent Esposito to help Beckett my heart totally melted. To KNOW her well enough, to SEE what she needed and put in motion what was necessary for her to heal - THAT to me is the ultimate of true love. It is one of the things I have always loved about their relationship. Castle has been willing to give her WHAT SHE NEEDS. Even if it means he doesn't get to "play the hero."

Ok, I grew up being taken care of by two grandmothers who watched nothing but soap operas, so I have learned instinctively to recognize slight hints of soap-operatic melodrama between characters and to run for the hills at the first sign of it. But reaching the other extreme makes for a situation that isn't any better. I don't want every episode to have the emotional intensity of "Cops and Robers" 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews 2215087486 or even of "Poof, You're Dead", can we at least agree that episodes In season 4 shouldn't have less chemistry than early episodes like Hedge-fund Homeboys? Their feelings don't have to constantly be on display, in fact the true charm of the show is when their attachment manifests in what seem like idle banter or even argument, and you get that delicious irony where everyone knows what's going on except them (although I would expect a little more overt emotion after 4 yrs).


The relationship they have now is so much stonger and tested. It's the kind of relationship that can be built on and continued beyond when they get together because they've been developed as complete characters.
Neutral Umm... what relationship? The one where they hardly talk about anything but work? The one where they don't tease each other, don't joke, don't share their feelings or face their problems together? The whole point of an emotional connection is that what each person NEEDS is the comfort and support of the other person. Of course it won't always be enough, in extreme cases like PTSD it might not be nearly enough, but it should always be needed. And yes, again, it is vital to avoid the soap-opera trap, but to do so by making the lead characters completely emotionally independent is silly in any kind of story. And to do it in a romance in order to avoid too much emotion is (as my grandfather would say) like buying a train ticket and then going on foot to spite the conductor.

P.S. I am not at all trying to convince you that I'm right; I would like nothing better than to be wrong. In fact I would love for you to convince me that I'm wrong so that I can start enjoying my favorite show again.
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 6:56 pm

I doubt I can convince you otherwise, because the argument hinges on a matter of perception. I've been on the other side of this argument with a different show, and the same thing applied.
I perceive a stronger relationship because I see that Beckett is willing to go places that she wasn't before. In season 3 Beckett had felt burned by Castle. Not so much by him leaving with Gina, but by never calling. She let's him back into her life DESPITE that because she DOES have intense feelings for him, ones she tried to face, got burned, and tries to bury. Meanwhile, Castle comes back and quickly realizes that he's IN LOVE with Beckett. Beckett is fighting it and experiencing it at the same time - hence Josh.

This season, Beckett KNOWS it's Castle, and also knows HERSELF much better. It's a different thing to flirt with someone that you know loves you and that you love, but also fear not being ready for.
So what I see is a Beckett absolutely glowing with her love for Castle, listening more, indulging more, praising more - but at the same time, she doesn't want to take advantage of what she knows. Instead she's gone back to therapy, admitted to NEEDING help, all because she loves Castle. To me, that's a deeper love. One that now matches Castle's love for her. Castle is said to have "become a better man" because of his love for Beckett. She is now doing the same for him.

Furthermore, Beckett HAS been sharing feelings and talking about things with Castle. In Kill Shot, CASTLE is the one who knows her best and calls her on not being okay. He does what is needed to get her what he needs.

In every episode I see characters who are more tuned into each oher's moods, needs, etc.

However, that is a matter of perception. I also feel like Marlowe has been building towards something mid season, and that also factors in. I admit, I was bit impatient after TDDUS, basically saying he needed to deal with the secrets thing next. The very next episode he did, and imo also showed more advancement in the Caskett dynamic - not by the words so much as the way they were relating to each other. Again, a matter of perception. Like when she came out of Gates office, the way they ducked away together was adorable to me. Again, though, it doesn't happen in an episode, I feel the way I do because of what's gone on before. Marlowe works out arcs EIGHT episodes ahead, so his goals are never fufilled within one episode.
So, yeah, I'm still in love with the show. romantic love
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 11:31 pm

I too have lost all connection and empathy for the two main characters in a TV show. No amount of pointing and laughing and being told to smell the roses could convince me that the roses were in fact infected with greenfly...the petals would soon drop...the blooms fade.

Beckstle is right, it IS all a matter of perspective. Others could only see the flowers...I could only see the blight.

I will only add my thoughts into the mix:

I would not wish emotional co dependency on any character (or person) having been forced to read Ernest Hemingway's A Farewell To Arms for English Lit in school- And positively BALKING at the notion that the female character wanted to cut her hair short so she could look just like that man she loved- I found myself wondering why her backbone had all the rigidity of overcooked spaghetti?

Again, this is from my perspective but Castle giving Beckett space is what I would have wanted as well. If I'm upset I'd rather be on my own (sometimes it's easier to focus on just yourself for a bit rather than having to worry over other people...even if those people are close to you and love you.)

Beckett and Castle can't be the flirty/banter people they were in S1/2. Although the banter was fun it did nothing to bring the characters closer together. It was, to coin a Castle Paley Centre 2010 phrase, "sexy swordplay." A tap, a prod, a smile, advance, retreat...playing with wit and each other like a kitten with a ball of yarn. It might have been fun to watch but it was all smoke and no substance. Swordplay keeps the other person a swords distance away.

S4 Beckett & Castle cannot flirt like that with one another because they are too close...far too close to the precipice. No more empty words or gestures. Every word, glance and touch is loaded. The weapons are down, the swords sheathed. The flirty banter can only return once B&C start their relationship! Yet another thing to look forward to!)

Sometimes is is not the presence of something that proves it's existence...it is the absence. Beckett & Castle can't hug or flirt or touch (or cry on one another's shoulder...with their guard down...and vulnerable) because that's all it would take to start the avalanche. It is precisely because they are so close to becoming a "them" that they have to be so careful. There is a lot at stake here. Both have invested their hearts into this (quietly, slowly and with ever present clarity) one false move or word could break their own heart or the other persons.

We are at the "glass vase" stage of the relationship. One false move and the thing of beauty, capable of holding water is nothing but a million tiny shards. (Marlowe loads this further with the twin weights of the secrets waiting to be unleashed.)

I'm invested, empathetic, hooked and cannot wait to see where the rest of this season takes us...but that is coloured by MY views, MY perspective and MY outlook...Depending on the garden you are in not everyone can smell the roses.
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSat Jan 21, 2012 11:52 pm

Brava! Tink! cheers I think you're point about just how careful they have to be speaks LOUDLY to the sneak peak spoiler for this week's episode. The touch was meant to be innocent, but with no immediate danger (unlike in Cuffed where Castle checks for the puncture mark) it registers WAY beyond a simple touch... which is why I can't WAIT TIL MONDAY! excited
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSun Jan 22, 2012 3:30 am

Ok, I just saw the sneak peek you mentioned and that was GREAT happy Which brings me back nicely to my original point of WHERE THE HECK HAS THAT BEEN ALL SEASON LONG?!?!?!
I don't so much mean the physical contact, (although if "Cuffed" had had one moment like that instead of all the immature and awkward sexual inuendo I would still be optimistic about the show). But what most excites me about that preview is the way they talked, how charming they were, how they were playing off and WITH one-another. That's what the show has really been missing. Not the boy-meets-girl flirting of season one , but that tone and tenor in their general conversation that shows these two really know each other through and through and love being together. The way they used to build theory together was the acme of this kind of chemistry, but you could also see it when they talked about cons in the episode with the con-man or comics in "Vampire Weekend" or psychics in "He's Dead, She's Dead", or magic in "Poof You're Dead", or soaps in "One Life to Lose"... I could go on and on but you get the point. We saw just a touch of that in "Demons", but really it's been missing all season long, along with the theory-building dialogues and any other bits of conversation that used to remind us that, whether they knew it or not, these characters were meant for each other. Of course we' all long for the special moments; the touch, the kiss, the admission of feelings, but really it's that thin little layer of affection that underlies (or should underlie) Castle and Beckett's most mundane interactions that makes the show worth watching, and when it isn't there, for whatever reason, the show has no point.

P.S. Tink and Beckastle, you don't have to tell me if you'd rather not, but when you refer to another T.V. show and another pair of leads, what show are you talking about?, I too have a failed show in mind when doing my analysis, and if we're all thinking of the same one (or even different ones but ones we've all seen), then we might be able to draw parallels and better understand each-others' points.

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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSun Jan 22, 2012 8:38 am

Let's just say towards the end of Season 5 of a certain show that begins with B and ends in ones...some things didn't quite add up. At the close of S6 that was IT! I was gone.

You watched the Sneak Peek? That's had the fandom in a flap since Friday! Why couldn't we have had that before ep 13 S4? Pace! Got an entire season to get through...plus it's the other events that have happened this season that are working to shape the Caskett coastline, eroding the cliff face. Cops & Robbers...Kill Shot & Cuffed all working as mini cogs in the S4 machine. THAT is what I appreciate about Castle (& dwindled out of the show I mentioned) past events within the season (& from previous seasons) COUNT and are remembered. They are used as stepping stones or building blocks to further later plot (not just raised to make one ep cool & forgotten about soon after.) Sometimes we can't see the progression until later on...Marlowe is already looking toward S4's finale and setting the building blocks & pace accordingly.
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeSun Jan 22, 2012 9:31 am

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Plus, again it's that perspective thing. I've seen things between them throughout the season, but no, not the way the clip was, because given what's gone on and what was said in Rise, Castle making moves on Beckett would have seemed like he was disregarding what she said. I LOVED Heroes & Villians because of the ways Beckett was relating to Castle. The same thing in Head Case, when Castle just looks at her when she's talking about buying the romantic aspects of the case. She's changing, and he's definitely attuned to it. The scenes in TDDUP were adorable! I've already mentioned DMFM. Everything that's gone on, the shifts in Beckett, Castle noticing those shifts the talks about their dynamics, Beckett's secret and not so secret looks of love and adoration. All add up to making what we saw in that clip so huge. SHE's been working so hard to be ready for more, has been feeling so much for him and trying to hold it back and he has SEEN her doing that, seen her changing, but the clarity of what she's feeling and how she's changed...well you saw the the clip. Razz.

Like Tink said, in Castle everything is built upon, things aren't just randomly happening within the relationship. It's the weight of everything that's happened up until this hand-holding moment that makes that clip really pop for me. Had it happened earlier I would have just been a moment of romantic fluff, not a moment of a deep reveal.
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeMon Jan 23, 2012 1:06 am

OK then; please explain to me how the first half of Castle S4 has been different from post ep-100 Bones? We start with the season finale and an admission of love that apparently falls on deaf ears. Then we mercifully skip the BLONDE saga and start season four with a conversation eerily reminiscent of "Blackout in the Blizzard", this kind of "some day we sorta kinda maybe will give this whole relationship thing a try" deal. Then the lead couple stop their banter and starts to retrace topics that have already been covered, and covered better in previous seasons (I am specifically referring to "Heroes and Villains" and "Headcase", which go over themes that had already been done, and done much better in "The Fifth Bullet" (S2) and "Anatomy of a Murder" (S3) (There's also "Beholder" that kind of parrots "Nikki Heat" from S3, albeit slightly better IMO). Most of the focus actually shifts away from the main couple and onto the secondary couple (in Bones it was Hodgela, in Castle it's Esplanie). The main couple starts splitting up on cases more and more often ("Kill-shot" reminds me a good deal of "The Hole in the Heart" - thankfully without the "crawling into bed" moment, but really without much of any "moment" at all), and then there's Heartbreak Hotel, whatever the heck that episode was about. In between of all this we had "Kick the Ballistics" which on some level gave me the same "Am-I-watching-the-wrong-show?" feeling I got watching "The Finder". Then We have "Cuffed", which is built on the same "bring-them-closer" premise as "Blackout in the Blizzard", but ends up giving us even less romance and even more awkwardness than its Bones counterpart. And finally we get "Till Death..." which much like "Change in the Game" (the Bones S6 finale) was billed as having an interesting case and giving the leads an indirect glimpse of what it would be like to be a couple, but instead ended up with a forgetable case and absolutely zero romance. Obviously it wasn't nearly as bad as "Change in the Game" but given that TCITG was so horrible I haven't been able to watch a single episode of that series since (not even a rerun from seasons 1-4), saying that Till Death...was not as bad is really not saying much in its favor.
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Beckstle
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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeMon Jan 23, 2012 2:26 am

:hahaha happy happy :
Sorry, but that's pretty funny. Very Happy
I don't particularly want to drag a different show into this discussion because I don't want to trash another show on a forum that has nothing to do with it. So, I'm going to try to do this without getting too deep into Bones.

I'll start with the the first, obvious problem with your analysis. You are starting mid-show cannon with both shows. While everything in Castle builds upon previous actions, Bones really doesn't. The point that you mention in Bones completely disconnects from everything that's gone on previously in the series. It's a complete rewrite of the historical relationship. It's the only way to make sense of that entire 100th episode scene. NOTHING in that 100th episode final scene connects back to the relationship built and established prior to that scene. The most OBVIOUS example of this: in eepisode 98 Brennan makes an entire speech about how because of Booth she HAS CHANGED and BELIEVES in love. It's a huge revelation, one that they'd been building pretty much since day episode 1. The speech she gives in the 100th, the REASON she gives in the 100th as to why she can't "give it a shot" and try a relationship with Booth? SHE CAN'T CHANGE. Shocked

In order to make the argument you are making about Castle you have to discount everything else that has gone on since season 1. You would have to reset back to season 1 and skip pretty much everything that happened in seasons 2-3.

I don't see how you can compare episodes from Season 2 and season 3 of Castle as being the same because the emotional circumstances of those seasons are completely different. They aren't in love in season two. Castle is still figuring out his feelings, and still has his playboy reputation to overcome in the eyes of Beckett, even though she's falling for him. End of two, she takes a risk and gets burned, he gave up and left. So who they are in season three is very different. Beckett's trying to play it safe while Castle has realized it HAS to be Beckett. Castle is essentially having to rewin Beckett's trust. Meanwhile all of Beckett's relationship traumas are up, the death of her mom stuff runs even deeper than she thought, Royce's murder, Josh who's never there and and then there's Castle who always is, but as she says in the final she doesn't know what they are, isn't sure what he feels. THEN comes Montgomery's betrayal, and her shooting, where Castle tells her that he loves her. That ENDS season three.

There is NO WAY I would expect Beckett to go waltzing into Castle's arms at that point. None. She is legitimately an emotional mess, but HAS at least come to realize that she is. She also clearly knows it's Castle that she wants, and if you had any doubts about that in Rise her subsequent therapy sessions make it clear that it's her desire to have a relationship with Castle that's motivating her. The swing set scene comes out of all the previous legitimate circumstances and Beckett's motivations and explanation come from logical reasoning. The elevator scene you mentioned from Bones has none of that. (I'm not gonna break down just how ridiculous season six was, even people who are happy with the show now pretty much unanimously agree that most of season six was awful and ridiculous.)

However, it again goes back to a matter of perception. I watch a tv show in terms of the whole series, so if the pieces don't fit into the framework drawn it doesn't matter if an individual piece is pretty or eyecatching, I don't like it. Other people aren't as concerned about how the pieces fit together - so long as they like the pieces.

The way that you chose to ask your question, comparing the shows from in the middle of the series says to me that you tend to look at individual pieces. There's nothing wrong with that. Alot of television is written to be episodic in that way. However, Castle really isn't an episodic show. I can see why it's frustrating if a person is watching it that way. Again, it's not a right or wrong thing, an artist may have an intention, but they can't dictate how their work is viewed or received.
You are free to completely disagree with me and hate what's happening on Castle, just I have yet to read anything that's dissuaded me from loving what Marlowe's been doing. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews   4.12 "DIAL M FOR MAYOR" ratings and reviews Icon_minitimeMon Jan 23, 2012 2:09 pm

Oh man...where to start with THAT one?

This is really the last thing I'm going to say about Bones because thinking about it just makes me angry all over again...

The structure/writing of Bones allows for some continuity to bleed through. Brennan's dad, the squints, some serial killers...Booth was SHOT at the end of S3 & the fallout from that was all boxed away within the following episode. Booth was stripped in a subsequent episode NOT A BULLET WOUND to be seen! I despise that not only was this plot contrivance not milked for all the emotion you could get out of it (why stuff in a plot cliche if your not going to take full advantage from it?) but all fallout from that was simply brushed under the carpet and Booth remains unmarred by the bullet. WHY BOTHER?

So when Beckett was all over the place after her shooting, making bad decisions, pushing people away and out came the scar/s I practically did cartwheels!

I can say with a certain degree of certainty that if the lead actress on Bones had not been expecting her first child S7 of Bones would still be stuck in the quagmire of shifting characters around like furniture. Up to the 100th ep the characters had been learning, growing and developing (very slowly and with some setbacks but I was willing to forgive) The 100th episode set the characters right back to the start of the production line (Like a car in Ford's factory just about to have the final windscreen wiper fitted to make it complete...only for someone to come along, dismantle it all together and we start building the car back from the first nut and bolt) The reasons for the reset? frankly pathetic.

I don't even care if characters go through the same or similar events more than once as long as a different set of circumstances colour the events going in/coming out or it's told from a different perspective or we/they learn something new. Or even if we can use the second time around as a comparison to the first...see if anything has changed?

In my opinion S4 of Castle has been handled with aplomb. Beckett has reeled from shooting to nearly going down the rabbit hole again...finding her feet, seeking help...

(...not always from Castle. I'll pause a moment here to add to this: Beckett is talking to Dr Burke in much the same way Castle talks to his mother. Usually if Castle has a problem he'll talk to Martha (she does give good advice sometimes!) he does not go weeping to Beckett...nor does Beckett come crying to him (she did get upset and cry with Castle during Rise) This does not mean that they don't care for one another or trust one another. Martha offers advice over Kate, Dr Burke offers advice over Castle. They can't talk to the other person about it yet...it'd give far too much away! If Castle's dad is brought up this season I could imagine him talking to Beckett over that. In this scenario she would be an outside party able to be a listening ear and some comfort where Martha could not.)

...seeking help and wanting to live her life out of the shadow of her mothers murder. Castle has reeled from nearly losing the woman he loves to finding his footing once again. For characters dealing with the emotional fallout from an event forcing a relationship upon them from some sort of mutual sadness or hope of healing each other is a pretty dark and bad way for a relationship to start.

The biggest difference between these two examples is Bones had the time, space and right timing for a relationship to start. Instead of taking advantage of this flat level playing field they chose to squander the opportunity. Beckett and Castle have yet to find their right time...it's coming...but it's not quite there.
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